I recognise that Middle Eastern states have gradually begun considering a form of cohabitation with Israel - and that these Hamas crimes were intended to derail that process. But I cannot for the life of me understand why Israel gets all the blame for the Palestinians' plight - for plight it most certainly is - without addressing the responsibility of Arab nations who have callously abetted and perpetuated that plight in order to encourage the demonisation of Israel. If the Left's concern for the Palestinian cause was genuine and heartfelt, they'd be targeting those nations as well as Israel. Maybe they have done but I don't recollect hearing it.
Jordan and Egypt both have histories of terrorist attacks by Palestinian radical movements brought into those countries by refugees. It's a whole Shia-Sunni-Muslim Brotherhood thing that is rarely part of the explanatory discourse in the West. They don't want the Palestinians coming into their countries, possibly for the reasons they say, but also because they are afraid of terrorism.
Thank you for your reply Judith, and I take your points on board. I still believe there was a window in time when some form of cohabitation was possible, many decades ago perhaps, but I suspect that ship has long sailed.
I append an exchange I have just concluded on Facebook:
Walter Ellis: Hamas is indeed an anti-semitic terrorist organisation and should be called out as such. Its current assault is both mad and vile. But [it is also] right to point out that Israel has treated the Palestinian people in general and Gazans in particular with nothing but contempt and cruelty for the last 55 years. It has turned Gaza into a self-governing concentration camp and its settlement policy across the West Bank is nothing short of criminal.
Joseph KR
Walter Ellis
A concentration camp is something you round people up and put them into. Israel used their military to round up Jews and literally drag them *out of* Gaza, in order to give Gazan Arabs exactly what they wanted: a Judenrein homeland. They also gave them all the infrastructure necessary to turn it into a thriving economy. The Gazan Arabs smashed it all up because it was Jewish and therefore filthy.
And Gaza has more than one border. Israel only controls one. Funny how no-one ever blames Egypt for keeping their border shut to keep their supposed brothers and comrades firmly out of their country. I certainly don't: it shows the Egyptians aren't stupid.
It takes a special kind of nastiness to criticise Israel for enforcing their border with Gaza *after* the last two days. Yeah, why didn't the Jews let more genocidal Jew-killers in sooner? How crass of them.
Walter Ellis
Mindless rubbish, Joseph. You really are a bigot.
Joseph KR
Walter Ellis
Which bit was untrue? We all know why some people like to accuse Jews of building concentration camps. There are so many hundreds of less mendacious words to describe Israel's actions, but it does give such a self-pleasing little thrill to describe Jews in the same terms as Nazis, doesn't it?
Yet you call me a bigot.
Walter Ellis
I do. For that is what you are.
Joseph KR
Walter Ellis
Which bit was untrue? Or do you use insults in the hope of distracting from facts?
Joseph KR
Walter Ellis
Come to that, can you explain what I said that was bigoted? Or is that just your Pavlovian reaction to my profile picture?
Walter Ellis
Joseph KR I haven't seen your profile picture. What does it show? [turns out to be the Star of David]
Davyd Melnyk
Joseph KR Yes, he uses insults in the hope of distracting from facts, like the ubiquitous “Nazi” slur hurled by delusional leftists everywhere. He probably wanted to call you that, but didn’t quite dare.
Joseph KR
Davyd Melnyk
I'll just block him shortly. I've had a policy of blocking antisemites for a few years, which has made the Internet a happier place.
Walter Ellis
This is pathetic. What a pair of bozos! Just for the record, I loathe Hamas and utterly condemn their latest, villainous attacks. They are vicious, mindless anti-semites. I also loathe and despise the settlements policy of successive Israeli governments and the attitude towards the Palestinians and their cause of perhaps a majority of Israel's Jewish citizens. And with that, I'm off. Goodbye.
Davyd Melnyk
Walter Ellis Odd that someone who is so clearly a clown would call anyone else “bozo”.
Joseph KR
Walter Ellis
And which bit of what I said was incorrect? You called it "mindless rubbish". Go on: back that up. Should be easy, right?
End of transcript
I could have got stuck in. I might even have mentioned that I lived in Israel for six months in 1985 and very much enjoyed my time there.. But what would have been the point? Balance when it comes to Israel is very rare.
Not sure that accepting that Hamas is an Islamist movement from the ultra-religious right, would entail accepting that a just settlement to the Palestinian question is impossible. Presumably Hamas will never be a party to a just settlement, but Palestinians may conclude at some point that Hamas have nothing to offer them and consign them to the margins of Palestinian politics. There is no reason to think that they will be in power for ever.
You might not see immediately why I think this is related but if you think about it I think this helps explain what’s happening in American campuses this week and given your other concerns about Identity politics, I think when you read this you will really really fear for the future of the left
I know that I have thought about this way too often in the last few months since I first read it
All true, Nick, and all so depressing. I started out thinking that this time, Israel has to take the velvet glove off. I cited Sherman’s march through Georgia in the American Civil War and Curtis Le May’s rejoinder to those who condemned his brutal bombing of Japan in 1945: “They started this, we didn’t, and I’ll keep killing them until they stop”. It took the SECOND atom bomb on Nagasaki before Hirohito got the message. The US Marines went into the city of Fallujah in Iraq to root out Islamists and warned civilians to evacuate; they then went in room to room and killed everyone they found. It took four days before the islamists and everyone else cried out in pain for relief. Amazingly brutal...and amazingly effective. I thought Israel should try it.
The problem is the hostages. There are no good choices, only bad and worse ones. But Hamas has to be stamped on. Corbyn and his fellow leftists are loathsome grubs, and they will never be redeemed. It’s not just anti-semitism; remember when they crowed after 9/11 that the imperialist Americans had it coming?
I'm not sure Fallujah 2003 is a great example. The US Marines carried out atrocities themselves. The city then became one of the key centers of the ISIS uprising in 2014. Voices similar to yours supported Sharon's attacks on the Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon. That misadventure led to the creation of Hezbollah and the expansion of Iranian influence to Israel's borders. Be careful what you wish for.
"Why are Harvard students holding Israel “entirely responsible” for the murder of Israelis, and pro-Palestinian protestors taking to the streets before the blood of the Jewish dead has even dried?" It might have something to do with the frequently aired opinion that, for certain causes, there's an unlimited "right to armed resistance" that licenses war crimes. Now, none of the people who make this claim can ever provide a source for this under the international law they so regularly cite in their "criticisms of Israel".
For all the excuses, reasons, history, it really does come down to blind hatred and sheer bloody nastiness, the evil practitioners of which will never be persuaded that they are wrong.
Yes, there's a complete lack of good faith on both sides: Hamas and the current Israeli government. Peaceful co-existence is possible, but it needs an acceptance that open warfare only makes things worse.
I recognise that Middle Eastern states have gradually begun considering a form of cohabitation with Israel - and that these Hamas crimes were intended to derail that process. But I cannot for the life of me understand why Israel gets all the blame for the Palestinians' plight - for plight it most certainly is - without addressing the responsibility of Arab nations who have callously abetted and perpetuated that plight in order to encourage the demonisation of Israel. If the Left's concern for the Palestinian cause was genuine and heartfelt, they'd be targeting those nations as well as Israel. Maybe they have done but I don't recollect hearing it.
I wonder why that is?
Jordan and Egypt both have histories of terrorist attacks by Palestinian radical movements brought into those countries by refugees. It's a whole Shia-Sunni-Muslim Brotherhood thing that is rarely part of the explanatory discourse in the West. They don't want the Palestinians coming into their countries, possibly for the reasons they say, but also because they are afraid of terrorism.
Thank you for your reply Judith, and I take your points on board. I still believe there was a window in time when some form of cohabitation was possible, many decades ago perhaps, but I suspect that ship has long sailed.
Such terrible times Nick. I’m just thinking of how many people I know who are Jewish , and feeling thankful for their friendship.
Brilliant.
Thank you Katherine
I append an exchange I have just concluded on Facebook:
Walter Ellis: Hamas is indeed an anti-semitic terrorist organisation and should be called out as such. Its current assault is both mad and vile. But [it is also] right to point out that Israel has treated the Palestinian people in general and Gazans in particular with nothing but contempt and cruelty for the last 55 years. It has turned Gaza into a self-governing concentration camp and its settlement policy across the West Bank is nothing short of criminal.
Joseph KR
Walter Ellis
A concentration camp is something you round people up and put them into. Israel used their military to round up Jews and literally drag them *out of* Gaza, in order to give Gazan Arabs exactly what they wanted: a Judenrein homeland. They also gave them all the infrastructure necessary to turn it into a thriving economy. The Gazan Arabs smashed it all up because it was Jewish and therefore filthy.
And Gaza has more than one border. Israel only controls one. Funny how no-one ever blames Egypt for keeping their border shut to keep their supposed brothers and comrades firmly out of their country. I certainly don't: it shows the Egyptians aren't stupid.
It takes a special kind of nastiness to criticise Israel for enforcing their border with Gaza *after* the last two days. Yeah, why didn't the Jews let more genocidal Jew-killers in sooner? How crass of them.
Walter Ellis
Mindless rubbish, Joseph. You really are a bigot.
Joseph KR
Walter Ellis
Which bit was untrue? We all know why some people like to accuse Jews of building concentration camps. There are so many hundreds of less mendacious words to describe Israel's actions, but it does give such a self-pleasing little thrill to describe Jews in the same terms as Nazis, doesn't it?
Yet you call me a bigot.
Walter Ellis
I do. For that is what you are.
Joseph KR
Walter Ellis
Which bit was untrue? Or do you use insults in the hope of distracting from facts?
Joseph KR
Walter Ellis
Come to that, can you explain what I said that was bigoted? Or is that just your Pavlovian reaction to my profile picture?
Walter Ellis
Joseph KR I haven't seen your profile picture. What does it show? [turns out to be the Star of David]
Davyd Melnyk
Joseph KR Yes, he uses insults in the hope of distracting from facts, like the ubiquitous “Nazi” slur hurled by delusional leftists everywhere. He probably wanted to call you that, but didn’t quite dare.
Joseph KR
Davyd Melnyk
I'll just block him shortly. I've had a policy of blocking antisemites for a few years, which has made the Internet a happier place.
Walter Ellis
This is pathetic. What a pair of bozos! Just for the record, I loathe Hamas and utterly condemn their latest, villainous attacks. They are vicious, mindless anti-semites. I also loathe and despise the settlements policy of successive Israeli governments and the attitude towards the Palestinians and their cause of perhaps a majority of Israel's Jewish citizens. And with that, I'm off. Goodbye.
Davyd Melnyk
Walter Ellis Odd that someone who is so clearly a clown would call anyone else “bozo”.
Joseph KR
Walter Ellis
And which bit of what I said was incorrect? You called it "mindless rubbish". Go on: back that up. Should be easy, right?
End of transcript
I could have got stuck in. I might even have mentioned that I lived in Israel for six months in 1985 and very much enjoyed my time there.. But what would have been the point? Balance when it comes to Israel is very rare.
Not sure that accepting that Hamas is an Islamist movement from the ultra-religious right, would entail accepting that a just settlement to the Palestinian question is impossible. Presumably Hamas will never be a party to a just settlement, but Palestinians may conclude at some point that Hamas have nothing to offer them and consign them to the margins of Palestinian politics. There is no reason to think that they will be in power for ever.
You might not see immediately why I think this is related but if you think about it I think this helps explain what’s happening in American campuses this week and given your other concerns about Identity politics, I think when you read this you will really really fear for the future of the left
I know that I have thought about this way too often in the last few months since I first read it
https://www.slowboring.com/p/how-critical-theory-is-radicalizing
Corbyn sucking up to Gerry Adams didn’t do Labour’s cause much good either. I wonder what Sinn Fein are saying?
All true, Nick, and all so depressing. I started out thinking that this time, Israel has to take the velvet glove off. I cited Sherman’s march through Georgia in the American Civil War and Curtis Le May’s rejoinder to those who condemned his brutal bombing of Japan in 1945: “They started this, we didn’t, and I’ll keep killing them until they stop”. It took the SECOND atom bomb on Nagasaki before Hirohito got the message. The US Marines went into the city of Fallujah in Iraq to root out Islamists and warned civilians to evacuate; they then went in room to room and killed everyone they found. It took four days before the islamists and everyone else cried out in pain for relief. Amazingly brutal...and amazingly effective. I thought Israel should try it.
The problem is the hostages. There are no good choices, only bad and worse ones. But Hamas has to be stamped on. Corbyn and his fellow leftists are loathsome grubs, and they will never be redeemed. It’s not just anti-semitism; remember when they crowed after 9/11 that the imperialist Americans had it coming?
I'm not sure Fallujah 2003 is a great example. The US Marines carried out atrocities themselves. The city then became one of the key centers of the ISIS uprising in 2014. Voices similar to yours supported Sharon's attacks on the Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon. That misadventure led to the creation of Hezbollah and the expansion of Iranian influence to Israel's borders. Be careful what you wish for.
"Why are Harvard students holding Israel “entirely responsible” for the murder of Israelis, and pro-Palestinian protestors taking to the streets before the blood of the Jewish dead has even dried?" It might have something to do with the frequently aired opinion that, for certain causes, there's an unlimited "right to armed resistance" that licenses war crimes. Now, none of the people who make this claim can ever provide a source for this under the international law they so regularly cite in their "criticisms of Israel".
The pictures from Berlin’s Sonnenalle will be an interesting example to see how the German society reacts
For all the excuses, reasons, history, it really does come down to blind hatred and sheer bloody nastiness, the evil practitioners of which will never be persuaded that they are wrong.
Yes, there's a complete lack of good faith on both sides: Hamas and the current Israeli government. Peaceful co-existence is possible, but it needs an acceptance that open warfare only makes things worse.